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 Post subject: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 28 Sep 2009, 11:28 
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OK, the new law that allows for concealed carry in establishments that serve alcohol for on-site consumption is now posted on the Arizona Legislative website. Note that it doesn't go into effect until Wednesday, 30 September:

This finally answers the question of where the signs need to be posted. So the sign on the door is valid, but they also need a sign next to the liquor license. Note, that if a sign isn't on the door, it's still your responsibility to ascertain whether carry is permitted or not, per section F(2).

Also note that 2(A) changes things slightly from what they are now. Previously (well, currently as of today), you had to know that it was a place that served and that, therefore, it was illegal to carry there. Thus, you sort of got a free pass: "I didn't know this Denny's served beer...sorry."

Now, it's an affirmative defense to carry where you didn't know it was illegal. This means that you are essentially guilty of committing the crime, and therefore have to admit it in order to say "...but, your Honor, I didn't know it was illegal." This is similar to the self-defense laws before they were recently changed. Before, you had to admit killing the person, then say, "but it was justified because...". Now, it's back where it should be...state has to prove the crime.

Only time will tell how this change in the intent will practically affect things "on the street." But now that the law has been posted, we now know what the governor actually signed.

Quote:
4-229. Licenses; handguns; posting of notice

A. A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 or who meets the criteria specified in section 13-3102, subsection D, paragraph 1 or 2 may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to the following requirements:

1. Be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.

2. Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.

3. Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".

B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.

C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:

1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section prior to the violation.

2. Any one or more of the following applies:

(a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.

(b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.

(c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days prior to the violation.

D. The department of liquor licenses and control shall prepare the signs required by this section and make them available at no cost to licensees.

E. The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine inches. The letters comprising the words "no firearms allowed" shall be at least three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a vertical inch.

F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:

1. Seeking emergency aid.

2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 28 Sep 2009, 12:47 
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So, does it go into effect at 1 second after midnight on the morning of the 30th or at midnight on the 30th?

In other words, are we good to go on the 30th of September or the 1st of October?

Thanks,
Flash


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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 28 Sep 2009, 12:53 
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If for some reason you are made carrying concealed, is all they can do is ask you to leave still? I'm guessing since this is law now and not just businesses saying they don't want weapons on the property that you can be charged with something instead of just asking you to leave.


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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 28 Sep 2009, 13:38 
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The way I read the law, you can be arrested then it's up to you to prove in court that you didn't know...the "affirmative defense" clause.

How it will be enforced on the street? Who knows. Hopefully, you'll just be asked to leave. The "knowingly" / intent element isn't a requirement of the law anymore, so one *could* be arrested and it gets sorted out before a judge.

yea, yeah...'concealed means concealed', etc.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 28 Sep 2009, 14:54 
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TimW wrote:
yea, yeah...'concealed means concealed', etc.


I like your preemptive strike against those, like me, that say what they don't know won't hurt them (I usually say it in response to anti gun people and my preference for stealth when carrying), BUT in this case I really think it is better to simply not go into those establishments. Make them wonder why their revenue has dropped, or tell them why and leave.

Can somebody answer Flash's question? I am curious myself.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 28 Sep 2009, 15:02 
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You can start on 12:01am Wednesday.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... s0927.html

Quote:
New laws go into effect Wednesday

125 comments by Casey Newton - Sept. 27, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Expanded gun rights, new restrictions on abortion and a ban on forcing animals to fight for gambling purposes are among the new laws set to take effect this week.

On Wednesday, 191 bills passed by the Legislature this year are scheduled to become law. But the enactment of House Bill 2564 and Senate Bill 1175 has been challenged, with abortion-rights groups taking issue with the measures in separate state and federal lawsuits. The bills create a 24-hour waiting period to get an abortion, require physicians to perform the procedure and allow pharmacists and other health-care professionals to refuse to provide contraception.

Hearings on both lawsuits are set for Tuesday.

Meanwhile, laws will take effect Wednesday allowing concealed weapons into bars and requiring property owners to allow guns on their properties if locked inside a car.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 28 Sep 2009, 15:57 
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Thanks Tim.

Flash


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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 30 Sep 2009, 13:17 
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Have we figured out if the liability statute is true or not. It was mentioned here viewtopic.php?f=18&t=89044 but not clarified.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 30 Sep 2009, 13:33 
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In looking at 4-301, there has been no change, and neither 4-229 or 4-244 mention anything about liability exemptions. If it's in there, I haven't found it.

Quote:
4-301. Liability limitation; social host

A person other than a licensee or an employee of a licensee acting during the employee's working hours or in connection with such employment is not liable in damages to any person who is injured, or to the survivors of any person killed, or for damage to property, which is alleged to have been caused in whole or in part by reason of the furnishing or serving of spirituous liquor to a person of the legal drinking age.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 30 Sep 2009, 22:17 
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i got an email from the NRA today. if im reading it right it says you can ignore the front door sign if there is no sign by the liquor license.
sounds odd to me.

"Also effective today, concealed carry permit holders can carry a concealed firearm for self-defense while in an establishment that serves on site alcoholic beverages as long as they are not consuming alcohol. A restaurant or bar can ban possession by posting a sign next to the liquor license. It is important to note that posting the sign at the entrance of an establishment is not sufficient and one is legally protected to enter the premises and see if the sign is posted in the proper place next to the liquor license. If it is not, the establishment is not in compliance with the law and you may remain inside even if a sign is posted at the entrance. It is important for gun owners to politely let restaurant owners know you prefer to patronize those restaurants who do not post their premises."

very odd. i dont think i will push the subject. sign at the door means im not going in.


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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 30 Sep 2009, 22:26 
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As I've said, that's probably true, but who's willing to be the test case, betting the judge/jury will decide that the sign you saw on the front door wasn't plain enough?

Thank the NRA for a law that's as confusing in its writing as it was unnecessary in its passage, since the original bill had enough votes. They and Harper were in such an itch-and-hurry to get the parking lot bill passed they didn't / wouldn't do a head-count to see where they were on the original restaurant bill. Shame.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 30 Sep 2009, 23:52 
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I also find it interesting the NRA doesn't tell you if you are asked to remove the weapon from the premises that you have to.


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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 01 Oct 2009, 00:21 
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TimW wrote:
Thank the NRA for a law that's as confusing in its writing as it was unnecessary in its passage, since the original bill had enough votes. They and Harper were in such an itch-and-hurry to get the parking lot bill passed they didn't / wouldn't do a head-count to see where they were on the original restaurant bill. Shame.

Seriously, I've defended the NRA in the past, but this just pissed me off and I mean I was f***ing pissed. I sent them emails and got bullshit replies. f*** the NRA, I really do think they are all about the Benjamins. [smilie=icon_evil.gif]

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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 02 Oct 2009, 12:38 
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I've read many people who have admitted they will break the law, but I haven't seen the penalties posted.

Am I reading this correctly? The penalty for breaking this law is:
Class 3 misdemeanor: up to $500.00 fine and 30 days in jail


Quote:
4-229. Licenses; handguns; posting of notice
............
B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.

Quote:
4-246. Violation; classification
............
C. A person violating sections 4-229, subsection B or 4-244, paragraph 31 is guilty of a class 3 misdemeanor.

Misdemeanors sentencing
Fines for misdemeanors

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 Post subject: Re: CCW in restauarants law
New postPosted: 09 Oct 2009, 20:36 
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What about a store that has a lunch counter that serves beer/wine. The area where they serve is contained, you are not allowed to leave it with your drink. If they have the no weapons signs posted at the front door does it apply to the entire store or just the bar area? Technically it is all premises. But so is a hotel with a bar right?


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