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 Post subject: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 01 Dec 2011, 20:08 
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Joined: 26 Nov 2011, 17:52
Posts: 86
I'm visiting here to talk about the 12ga From Hell and
other developements it has led to.Nice site you folks have.
I'm with a group of experimenters passing on the years of
info and pictures to all gun nuts around the net, about
12ga From Hell and other big bores. We have posted some
round the net about our many ideas we have implemented for
12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga,28ga,20ga,16ga, and my 585HE/700HE wildcats.

The idea for the 12ga FH, and the first gun built for it,
was Rob Garnicks on the AR Forums. In the first picture,
a heavy duty Borchardt falling block. He has gotten
1000 gr to 3000 fps in this, a high pressure action.

Then I and others joined in and set up a big variety
of guns for the case. The case, a brass case 3.85" long,
made from BMG brass expanded out with straight sides,
to take 12ga .729" dia slugs and a 12ga size rim added on.
Also we get turned brass cases from Rocky Mtn Cart of that
length and shorter. Many guys used 3.5" cases, as standard
reamers are available, and 12ga 3.5" guns are available,
so that they could shoot 3.5" plastic also. Our 3.85" chamber
and 3.5" will shoot any of the shorter cases.
In our work we found ways to get over a third more velocity
in shorter plastic and brass cases using slower powders
than regular fast shotgun powders. We reloaded fast
rifle powder, IMR 4759, IMR 4227, in larger amounts
and got 600gr hard lead slugs over 1800 fps in 24" barrels,
and were lab tested to be at or under magnum shotgun
pressures that are used in factory 3.5" loads.


More pictures, the 2nd showing long brass 12ga FH case with
regular 12ga case. Other 12ga FH guns are next,3rd Nef Ultra
heavy barrel with length added, 4th Nef 8ga made by boring
out heavy barrel 10ga, 5th FBW falling block,my 585HE belted
case.The FBW has a 20ga 3.5" extra barrel also.
.And we also worked with 8ga,4ga, in falling blocks, 20ga,16ga
in break actions, and my wildcat 585HE,700HE in various actions.

6th picture is our big cartridges from 2 bore on down, in
order-2bore- 4ga- 8ga- 10ga- 12ga FH- 700HE--700H 3.25- 30-06..
7th picture is 4bore falling block we built on our design.
Our 4bore is 1 inch bore.We also helped in getting the barrel
threads larger in the new large MRC PH bolt action to fit our
cases like the 700H 3.25" shown in 8th picture in MRC.

9th picture is an 8bore bolt gun a guy on another forum built
from scratch.Last is Savage 210 that Bret in MN set up with
heavy barrel and a recoil reducer put into the hollow stock.
Shown with boot off so you can see the build. He has gotten
saboted 500gr slugs over 3000 in this.We will post a bunch
more info and we welcome your ideas and help. And we'll give
all the help we can to folks ..Ed Hubel

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 01 Dec 2011, 20:40 
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I was just reading about this the other day (looking for info on 12 vs. 20 slug accuracy/range). VERY interesting...

-WRM

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 01 Dec 2011, 23:08 
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Rifled barrel or smooth bore?


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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 02 Dec 2011, 19:36 
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Joined: 26 Nov 2011, 17:52
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We all have both rifled and smooth for testing.
Some smooth bores a very accurate also.
We get asked about legality and whether these big cartridges
are DDs. First of all; all shotgun calibers over 50cal are exempt from
being classified as DDs under Title 18 GCA Section 921....
And it doesn't matter what exciting or promo name we call them,
the barrels are still marked for gauge. They can be called 12ga 3 Inch
Super Magnum, 12ga Goose Magnum, 12ga From hell, 12ga 3.5 Express,
12ga Hammerhead, etc, they still are a 12ga case of some length.
And length doesn't matter as long as shorter cases, with straight
sides, and same 12ga(or whatever gauge)base size fit and fire in
longer chambers. IE; 2.5, 2.75, and 3" firing in 3.5", and all of these
firing in our 3.85" longer chamber. IE; you can't take 37mm cannon
shell and neck it to 12ga and have an automatically exempt 12ga
cartridge, as other shorter 12 gauges would not fit/fire in chamber,
and you'd have to get it exempt as sporting. How-
Under the same Section any other over 50cal non-shotgun
cartridge can be classified as Exempt For Sporting Use by
applying for the exemption, like I have done for my cases,and many
others(JDJ-AHR-Etc) have done, as well as cases already sporting
from the old days. Now as for hunting rules in shotgun areas,
game depts may say that you can't use long range spitzer bullets
but must use traditional blunt slugs, for safety. Hunting rules are
varied all over the place.

More history of firsts, in our 12ga FH and big bore work.

The first gun of mine to have this case was
my Savage 210 in first picture with a regular style
heavy stock. Later changed to thumbhole stock.
I changed barrel to heavy bull barrel and
chambered it for the 12ga FH 3.85" long case.

Second picture is the first NEF 12ga Ultra that we put
the first 12ga fH case in. I only had to lengthen chamber.
The same gun now has long barrel and thumbhole stock.

Third picture is first NEF 10ga heavy barrel that we put
the 10ga FH in. Gun came with long 30" heavy barrel.

Fourth picture is the first 8ga test gun we built using the
super strong 8ga kiln cases with the belt step swaged
down. It is an Enfield that we reamed out to take the
case, like the 12ga Mauser 12ga conversions were done.
And we added extra rear bolt lugs for strength.

Fifth picture is the 1st gun my 585HE was put in.
It is an Enfield and gets 750gr bullet 2700 fps.

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And in the vein of old time gun actions, of which are various falling
blocks, we like them also for the hairy big bores, like the 8bore and
4bore ones we made over the years, that are pictured above.
Following are 3 pictures of various parts and processes of making the
action, using easy to get small parts, lever, trigger, hammer, etc,
and the action block, breach block from steel blocks in 1st pic.

Last 2 pictures are the FBW brand falling blocks, one which is the
Model L that we adapted to the one piece stock and the other is the
smaller Model S with regular two piece stock. Both are set up with
my 585HE. I can run full pressure in the 585.

The Model L, I can switch to a 20ga barrel, 600NE barrel,
and my 700HE using moderate loads. Last pic is Model L with
thumb hole stock, and my 585HE case in the action..Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 02 Dec 2011, 22:06 
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Joined: 08 Jun 2008, 18:40
Posts: 316
hubel585 wrote:
We all have both rifled and smooth for testing.
Some smooth bores a very accurate also.
We get asked about legality and whether these big cartridges
are DDs. First of all; all shotgun calibers over 50cal are exempt from
being classified as DDs under Title 18 GCA Section 921....
And it doesn't matter what exciting or promo name we call them,
the barrels are still marked for gauge. They can be called 12ga 3 Inch
Super Magnum, 12ga Goose Magnum, 12ga From hell, 12ga 3.5 Express,
12ga Hammerhead, etc, they still are a 12ga case of some length.


I really don't think that "they" would care how the barrels are marked. Especially since you're not shooting a 12g round in any way, shape, or form... but a reconfigured 50BMG cartridge.

It seems like you're walking a fine line, but hey- it's you, not me.


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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 04 Dec 2011, 19:36 
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Joined: 26 Nov 2011, 17:52
Posts: 86
It is not a BMG case anymore, and it won't go in a BMG chamber
any more than a 3.5" 12ga plastic case will. Just a way
to make a 12ga case.
It makes no difference how a shotgun case is made whether
constructed from virgin paper, plastic, steel, copper, brass, aluminum,etc
in factory stamping presses, or turned from plastic, brass,steel, etc in a
machine shop, like RMC does, or you wildcat other cases into
what you want. I can make 12ga case by reworking 700NE brass,
and I can make 20ga brass cases from 600NE brass, I make 4ga
cases from 20mm brass, a brass 410 case from 9.3 x 74mm case,
a 505 Gibbs case from a military Cheytac case, and so on.
RMC makes a hundred different cases, rifle and shotgun,
from brass bars, big cartridge makers with stamping presses ,make
BMG cases.600NE, and 700NE cases from the same brass draw cups
supplied by the brass manufacturers. If take bmg cases to salvage yard
and they do buy brass, and are smelted and used to make sporting
cases in next go round they are legal. No difference.
There is no differece as far as cases fitting in 12ga chamber; whether
it is an old paper case, a plastic case, magtech brass case, russian
steel case, RMC brass case, a Remington brass case ,our brass case
we make, Active all plastic case; IE, that fit anf firing in the
12ga chamber means it is a 12ga case.No matter how it is made.

The rules say, THE BARRELS MUST BE MARKED WITH THE GAUGE.

Now some info on cases and slugs
The 50 BMG brass can be made into some real
great cartridges, our 12ga FH, shown first, showing
cases with rim turned off and threaded; and the 12ga rim
pieces to be screwed on, with finished cases shown.
And 2nd making my 700HE showing original BMG case,
case with belt only, and then expanded out to 700cal.
This makes a super strong big bore case, as I have
fired some 25 times and case is still good.And
it in my big Vulcan bolt gun gets a 1000gr to 3200.

3rd picture shows our 4bore/ga case with slugs, and
the 20mm case we make them from. They match the 4bore
turned cases that are used in the Ken Owen doubles.
4th the Rocky Mtn Cartridge, 12ga turned 3.5" cases
with variety of slugs and sabots.In picture first loaded
one is BPI sabot, then 730gr Dixie, then 600gr Dixie,
then RG Henson's solid nose and his hollowpoint.
RMC can make cases any length and any gauge.
5th shows a 12ga FH and 10ga FH we made using steel
basecups taken from 12 and 10 ga cases. We turned down
bases a few thousands of the original brass cases
and epoxied the bases. Used BMG case s for 12ga and
50cal Russian for 10ga.This research came from a
another forum poster, like over half of what we do.Ed

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More pictures of 12ga slugs and saboted slugs.
1st The US-S sabot/slug, with the green locked on base,
along with others.The US-S slug is nearly as accurate
in smoothbores, for which it is made, as sabots are
in rifled. those pictured are heavier than most other
brands of saboted slugs.

2nd a Jacketed 730gr by RG Henson and a hard,heat treated
600gr by Dixie Slugs in FL, both full bore slugs,
3rd a BPI sabot with hardcast 440gr, .504"
diameter slug. BPIs were intended to use .500" bullets
used in 500S&W, the little larger ones we use seem
little more accurate.Makes tighter fit in rifled barrels.
4th other sabots we tested , 5th brass turned slugs
and there are many other slugs/sabots we'll show..Ed


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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 05 Dec 2011, 22:26 
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Joined: 26 Nov 2011, 17:52
Posts: 86
Quite a few have wanted doubles in our 12GA long case.
Rob is doing one on a big 10ga Zabala double,with Greener
crossbolt lock. He is replacing 10ga barrels with heavy
12ga rifled barrels, mono-blocked into the 10ga breaches
by threading them into the breach sections.
First,2nd,3rd pictures. He is now building and getting
barrel ribs done and the gun regulated.

4th picture is my 700HE in a Vulcan bolt action.
5th is the 6gal water pail from the Youtube video, atomizing.
The pail was heavy plastic, full and sealed tight.
That was 12ga 600gr hollow point slug about 3000 fps.


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CASES-1st is comparison of 12ga FH brass cases, with ours on the
left we made using bmg brass, and 3 on the right that
are of a few we found already done in 12ga size, that is
as long as ours.RMC makes them long as ours and any length needed.
2nd is our long case next to short one.You can see how much
thicker and stronger our case is.

3rd is a slug made for rifled, for use in 12ga wadcup, and it
being 16ga size works in our 16ga FH case also, as shown.
4th shows 20ga RMC cases and dies we have found for them.


5th shows 1500gr 4bore slugs a guy cast for me and cases.
These are hollowbase, as our 4 and 8 gauges on the falling
blocks, are smoothbore. Top loads with these 25-2700.Ed


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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 07 Dec 2011, 10:16 
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I'd love to see video!

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 07 Dec 2011, 10:28 
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Joined: 18 Jul 2008, 16:43
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cool...you're like Henry Bowman!


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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 07 Dec 2011, 21:14 
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Some more gun info about what others around the world
are doing with big bores. First is a 4bore Tula pump
gun, made in Russia. A few guys in the US have them.
They are smoothbore and .938" bore. They used a short
3" long plastic case, and we helped some of the
owners get a run of brass cases by Rocky Mtn Cartridge.
Big Al, a poster on the AR Big Bore Forums owns one.
Our 4bore case is a full 1" bore 4.05" long.
Many early 4bores for shot were set up with .935-938"
smooth bores.

Second is a bolt gun a guy in Europe did in 1" bore
using 20mm brass expanded, ending up for
headspacing, a small shoulder. It is full length like
ours, instead of shortened like other pipsqueak ones.
3rd is our big and small falling blocks, big one
the 4bore we made and other a FBW Model L in 585HE.
Both stocks need finishing in these pictures
and metal surfaces has to be finished...I'm not a
fancy, finish smith and to busy experimenting,
to get everything real fancy.

4th is a 20ga FH 3.5" chamber break action. It is a
CBC and we monoblocked in a heavy long 20ga barrel.
5th is a Mauser 12ga GEHA conversion, that had real
light barrel and cracked stock. We put the extra
Savage 12ga 24", rifled slug barrel we had in it, and
used the strong Savage plastic stock. Still has original
3" chamber and we test our slow powder 3" plastic loads.
Great load with full bore slug, is 600gr Dixie, using
90gr IMR4759, going 1800. This load was lab tested
and verified for speed and only runs plastic case, magnum
shotgun pressures.



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More info on cases, first is our cases where we put in a
bushing to use shotgun primers. Also some of the guys
shorten the cases for use in 3" and shorter chambers.
Magtech makes 2.5" 12ga drawn brass cases that guys
are reloading for use in short actions, like 1887 leverguns.
2nd is 8ga plastic cases we use, the left 2 are
REM and clear is WIN. These can be gotten at BPI
and Precision Reloading. We use roll crimp on
these for slugs and sabots.
1100gr at 2000 is a good load. 9 triple ought buckshot
is a good load. Totals 630gr for the 9, goes 2500
if you want hairy load.

3rd are 8 and 10 ga hard cast slugs with hollowbases, we use.
4th is some of our wildcat cartridge stuff, my 585HE cases,
die sets, and reamers. Dies are by CH4D, reamers by Manson.
5th is our 585HE in two break actions, a CBC and NEF.
Both set up by mono-blocking in 585 heavy barrels...Ed


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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 07 Dec 2011, 22:02 
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hubel585 wrote:
We all have both rifled and smooth for testing.
Some smooth bores a very accurate also.
We get asked about legality and whether these big cartridges
are DDs. First of all; all shotgun calibers over 50cal are exempt from
being classified as DDs under Title 18 GCA Section 921....
And it doesn't matter what exciting or promo name we call them,
the barrels are still marked for gauge. They can be called 12ga 3 Inch
Super Magnum, 12ga Goose Magnum, 12ga From hell, 12ga 3.5 Express,
12ga Hammerhead, etc, they still are a 12ga case of some length.
And length doesn't matter as long as shorter cases, with straight
sides, and same 12ga(or whatever gauge)base size fit and fire in
longer chambers. IE; 2.5, 2.75, and 3" firing in 3.5", and all of these
firing in our 3.85" longer chamber. IE; you can't take 37mm cannon
shell and neck it to 12ga and have an automatically exempt 12ga
cartridge, as other shorter 12 gauges would not fit/fire in chamber,
and you'd have to get it exempt as sporting. How-
Under the same Section any other over 50cal non-shotgun
cartridge can be classified as Exempt For Sporting Use by
applying for the exemption, like I have done for my cases,and many
others(JDJ-AHR-Etc) have done, as well as cases already sporting
from the old days. Now as for hunting rules in shotgun areas,
game depts may say that you can't use long range spitzer bullets
but must use traditional blunt slugs, for safety. Hunting rules are
varied all over the place.



First of all, I respect your fundamental right to make these things. The GCA unjustly infringes on that right.

I am going to disagree that 18 USC 921 (a)(4)(B) are exempts rifled 12GA firearms from being classified as destructive devices. It specifically does not:

Quote:
(4) The term "destructive device" means—....
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is gener- ally recognized as particularly suit- able for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and


Under the statute, the only ONLY 1/2"+ barrel firearm that can be exempted is a shotgun. I understand that this provision is misconstrued to include other large bore firearms like rifles, but that action DOES NOT comply with the statute.

So the question is... what is a shotgun?


Quote:
(5) The term "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or re- designed and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.



It CANNOT be a shotgun under the statute unless it has a smooth bore. Your rifled 12 gauge is NOT a shotgun under the GCA. Therefore, the Attorney General cannot find that it is suitable for sporting purposes, and therefore it cannot be exempted, and therefore it is a destructive device. This according to the statute.

I understand this is not the normal practice, and you list examples of the authorities ignoring it and exempting all kinds of 1/2"+ rifles. This section is regularly ignored. For example, the pistol grip only "shotguns" are on sale everywhere, despite the fact that they are clearly DD's under the statute. But, for the same reason that the Taurus Judge is a pistol and not a shotgun, your rifled creations are DD rifles and not shotguns. My only point is that one day they will decide to read the statute as it is written and these devices will be treated like the DD's that they are.

In the meantime, party down. My only goal here is the rebut your statement that 18 USC 921 excepts them. It doesn't, and in fact does quite the opposite. The government simply ignores its own statute.

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 07 Dec 2011, 22:06 
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By the way, if I were building one of these things I would get an ATF letter certifying that it is exempt. Even if they are wrong about the statute (which they would be), it provides you a decent defense.

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 08 Dec 2011, 11:40 
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This just in...

OMG, Bass Pro selling DDs: http://www.basspro.com/Remington-Factor ... googlebase

UNGH.

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 08 Dec 2011, 12:17 
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Username Goes Here wrote:
This just in...

OMG, Bass Pro selling DDs: http://www.basspro.com/Remington-Factor ... googlebase

UNGH.


Besides the fact that they can name exemptions, at will...

There's a difference between that commercially available shotgun, and the result of some home-gunsmithing.

Don't believe me? Start commercially producing these large caliber, rimmed 50BMG parent-cased, rifles. See how fast you'd end up in FPMITA prison without prior approval from the Tech Branch or the like.


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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 08 Dec 2011, 12:26 
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Username Goes Here wrote:
This just in...

OMG, Bass Pro selling DDs: http://www.basspro.com/Remington-Factor ... googlebase

UNGH.



The barrel itself isn't a destructive device without a matching shotgun, in which case it becomes part of one. This is a destructive device all by itself and it is for sale everywhere: http://www.fsguns.com/chainsaw.html .

Also, why don't you explain why these devices are not destructive devices under the statute? You are highlighting the absurdity of classifying them as such because there are millions out there, but that was one of my central points.

The ATF signaled that they could do this at any time in 2009 ("Buyer/Seller Beware" starting on the bottom of page 2): http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/ffl-news ... 009-11.pdf . People are still ignoring the issue as if it never happened. The law says that the devices in the OP and the pistol grip only shotguns are DD's, the ATF just doesn't have the political muscle to interpret it properly after so many years of bad interpretation.

If I were an enterprising liberal DA in California (or any state with mirrored DD laws) I would start prosecuting these.

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