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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 08 Dec 2011, 12:33 
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Tyler wrote:

Besides the fact that they can name exemptions, at will...



The point is that these exemptions are not in accordance with the statute. If a county attorney hands you a card that says "Good for one free murder" does it make it legal to murder someone, or is the CA acting without statutory authority?

Tyler wrote:
There's a difference between that commercially available shotgun, and the result of some home-gunsmithing.


Wrong. There is no statutory difference:

"(4) The term "destructive device" means—....
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is gener- ally recognized as particularly suit- able for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and..."

It does not matter who makes it.



Tyler wrote:

Don't believe me? Start commercially producing these large caliber, rimmed 50BMG parent-cased, rifles. See how fast you'd end up in FPMITA prison without prior approval from the Tech Branch or the like.



Attracting attention to illegal activities is bad, but I think the 50BMG is up for debate as a DD. The bore is right on the line on the lands and .510 on the grooves... that is a legitimate debate, unlike the pistol grip only shotgun debate (which is clearly a DD).

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 08 Dec 2011, 13:06 
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administrator wrote:
Wrong. There is no statutory difference:

"(4) The term "destructive device" means—....
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is gener- ally recognized as particularly suit- able for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and..."


I'm willing to guess that the Attorney General recognizes the rifled 11-87 in the commercial configuration as something "sporting".

Along with an 870, 935, 500, 1100, etc.

Same notion as a Yugo SKS is a C&R firearm until you put an aftermarket plastic stock on it.

As I've said before, the OP may be in the clear, but it's a VERY fine line that I would not even attempt to walk myself.

Should it be legal? I see no reason why it shouldn't be. Particularly if you interpret the 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights in such a way. However, the way things have been interpreted in the past, and the track record of the governing agency, I wouldn't push my luck.


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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 08 Dec 2011, 14:15 
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Tyler wrote:
administrator wrote:
Wrong. There is no statutory difference:

"(4) The term "destructive device" means—....
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is gener- ally recognized as particularly suit- able for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and..."


I'm willing to guess that the Attorney General recognizes the rifled 11-87 in the commercial configuration as something "sporting".

Along with an 870, 935, 500, 1100, etc.



You are missing the point that a rifled 11-87 is NOT a shotgun under the statute. A shotgun MUST have a smooth bore under the statute. No smooth bore= not a shotgun. The Attorney General is only authorized to exempt sporting SHOTGUNS. A rifled 11-87 NOT being a SHOTGUN- they cannot be exempted by the attorney general.

Where he has exempted non-shotguns he exceeds his statutory authority and infringes on the legislative branch power to make legislation.

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 10 Dec 2011, 02:23 
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There are dozens of companies selling rifled barrel shotguns.
And thousands of retailers selling.. If ATF is letting it go so will I.
If they decide to prosecute there will be 15 million rifled barrel
shotgun guys as well as a bunch of state game folks in shotgun only
states getting congress to change the wording,
BY THEM LETTING IT GO THEY ARE IMPLYING AN EXEMPTION FOR SPORTING,
which they I guess have a right to do under the section where they give
exemptions like they have for rifle cases.They have the right to exempt
whatever they want ,over 50 cal, according to the wording.

And maybe they figured they had the excuse or leeway to grandfather rifled
barrels in, as they are not a new invention occurring since GCA was
passed. but been around and used in paradox and other shotgun calibers
for 110 years!!!! I think there are others that seem to think
that this is the case, IE, grandfathered excuse..
And on the gun and mfg side of things, how do
we know that they haven't given NEF, Rossi, Mossberg,
REM, WIN, Benelli, etc,sporting exemptions to mfg/sell,
for the rifled barrel guns. These mfgs do have lawyers.
You can't call them, ATF, and find out, as they won't
tell you about any sporting use cartridges, guns,etc, or
talk about them, except your own. I've tried.
They don't even have a public list.
As for the case it is still 12ga no matter how made or material.
I have one over 5 inches long, factory one. I'd like to start a petition drive if we get
a regime change to have congress correct wording as well as get the process
out in the open with a list;we will know in year or so.

Some more gun info. Here is picture of a nice, large diameter
action a fellow built, for big bore use.Nice beautiful machine
work, He put a 700 short case in it. He called it 700WTF.
It would do 12ga, 16ga, 20 ga, etc.

Second is the 8 bore we just made on falling block. It is
chambered for now for the 8ga 3.3" heavy duty plastic
case that we use. That we get by swaging the belt down on
the new 8ga kiln cases, that BPI and Precision Reloading sell.
The chamber fires old original 8ga cases also, but a regular
kiln load not swaged, won't chamber, a safety factor for guns not
as strong as the falling block. Guys in the UK gave me the idea
of swaging down the belt on kiln cases, as they did it
to get cases for their old 8ga doubles.

Third is the Savage 210 we put a 700 cal barrel in and made it
a 700NE. The 700 NE has same rim diameter as 12ga, but a
smaller base, ,020" smaller, Handles the loads fine, as its
factory loads are the same as our top loads in the Savage
with RMC 3.5 brass cases. Before that I had my 700H 3.25"
belted case in it. Worked great.

4th- we made a 28ga FH, a brass case 3.25" long that
RMC made for us. The chamber still fits and fires shorter
28ga plastic cases.Here is one in picture with a 505 Gibbs to show
the size and potential. I put first one in a Mossy 695 bolt gun
with a heavy rifled barrel. The 28ga rifled is same groove
diameter as the 550 magnum, so same diameter slugs work.

5th are couple of our 12ga FH cases guys shortened for
short actions, less recoil. Left are 2 inches,right 2.25"
and some have shortened them to 2.5" for use in
guns that will feed loaded 3" plastic. The 3" loaded plastic
and 2.5" brass with slug are about 2.7" overall..
If you folks have questions we'll help if we can.Ed






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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 12 Dec 2011, 22:20 
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What we are doing in getting more power from shotgun calibers
isn't super new or completely novel, most just
modernizing and improving older ideas..

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had over 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, thinner barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 4th picture.
Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the first 4 pics.


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Continuing-Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to 150+ yds. Even in the old days. Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20 bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not quite as strong as 12ga FH
but as strong as some factory hotrod loads now ....We can do more
now due to better guns, powder selection, and accumulated research.
Picture #1 from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture is from the Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.

2rd is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks 4th picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for our 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

We are now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.Ed


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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 14 Dec 2011, 23:23 
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Some more stuff from the old days---
First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, that didn't have real heavy barrels.
These guns had short section of rifling at the end
of the barrel or shallow rifling. THis allowed more speed
than old foster slugs which flattened the trajectory,
and along with rifling spin, allowed for longer range shooting.


Second picture from Greener book here, is of older 4 and
8 gauges.And you can see videos some of these great old
guns on Youtube.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.
This case matches the turned 4bore case that Ken Owen had made
for the 4bore doubles he built.



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And more from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
more modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.

3rd is what a 4bore slug, if stop framed so to speak, would
look just leaving the muzzle of the 4bore falling block
we built. Some 4bores were used in the old days but they were
poorly stocked and balanced for taming recoil. Ours with thick
pads, thumbhole stock, proper balance with 1500gr
slug at 2000 all our guys here can handle just fine..Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 17 Dec 2011, 03:44 
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Some more slug experimenting and developement.
Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
we had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug.
The original Lee mold makes slugs smaller diameter,
so that they fit in a 12ga wadcup.
Slugs are hard cast alloy to take high speeds..
In picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass 12ga cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN,
where they needed short combination to feed from tube.
These slugs have real good shoulder step to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.

These first ones are 500 gr.The guys are reworking
another die to get the weight up to about 600gr,
that some of our the brass case guys want to use.
So many guys like the 600 gr size, but these with
the partly hollow base allows them to be longer,
for a little more stability,if used in smooth barrels.
Lee molds are not a real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and change them.

Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug, in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.
Brenekke has had full bore slugs with lock-on seal and
cushion, but this new appliction putting them in a sabot.
Picture #2


Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.And no steel touches
the bore only the plastic.Should have good penetration
witout breaking apart.These are front heavy will get
fair accuracy in smooth bores.




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A new slug from the EU,a new 300gr US-S slug with locked
on base, discarding petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate
in smooth bores, Using the same idea as their all brass slugs
we showed above with locked on base, and discarding front petals.
Only these are mostly aluminum to get a lighter slug combo.In the
first picture.In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
we can get 2800. 2nd picture some results of penetration tests
in a sand bank they did. The brass centers penetrate like the
all brass ones they make.They are reporting 2" groups from regular
barreled smoothbore pumpguns at 50 yds with scope.Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 21 Dec 2011, 17:51 
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We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic case got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2 cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs...

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A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the
front. Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs from Greece are on the
plastic bases, that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders...

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Here is picture of a great sizer for expanded plastic
cases, a MEC Super Sizer. It operates with collets. Sizes
cases better than factory. Has the power to shrink
expanded basecups. 2nd picture is the roll crimper tool
in drill press, it does plastic cases as good a roll crimp
as the factory does.You can see couple we crimped
behind press base in picture...Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 27 Dec 2011, 18:26 
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Here is picture of 4 long cases, top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
3.5" turned brass 20ga. Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass. Bottom
a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.

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Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
which made it possible to crimp that way.

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Next pictures shows bullet jackets made from a copper tubing caps.
Caps are the ones they solder on to copper pipes, and they made
a die and punch to form them to a good nose shape and
size. Then they fill them from rear with lead.
Example; 1/2" cap does 700cal and 12ga with
right dies and punches.

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Last the 2nd gun we put the 585HE long belted case in,
a Ruger 77 bolt action. it has a heavy 585 cal barrel,
and it is a real strong action....Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 05 Jan 2012, 20:18 
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Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets
pictured have the locked on base that their
other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
for doing slugs like these.Ed

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We also had RMC make us a long brass 28ga case.
It is 3.25" long as shown in picture. They could be
3" or whatever you would want. The 550 Mag rifled barrels
are perfect bore for them, and we did one
in a Mossy 695 bolt gun, 2nd picture...Added heavy barrel.
It is shown next to a 505 Gibbs brass
case 1st picture to show that it isn't a puny case.
And chamber still fires plastic 28ga like the
new Brenekke slugs just out.Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 11 Jan 2012, 00:26 
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First picture is an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from a good
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.
This shows the possibilities of working with smoothbores,
rather than not trying to make them work.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base slug, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.Ed

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In earlier thread I mentioned the long brass 28ga case
we setup. Well here is picture of a revolving 28ga
we will try to get later on and put in heavy barrel
and longer chamber and use brass 28ga cases.Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 18 Jan 2012, 03:30 
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Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.

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Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.

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Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 18 Jan 2012, 07:44 
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hubel585 wrote:
Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.
Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.
Image

An interesting round, in stock here: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/132180 ... g-_-132180
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But @ $3/ea, on the high side...
More from the manufacture's site: http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/articles/show ... advantages

UNGH

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 20 Jan 2012, 03:02 
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Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.

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Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.

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Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.

Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.
It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,
many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
or in sabots if we can find some.ED

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 Post subject: Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big Bores--
New postPosted: 20 Jan 2012, 06:38 
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Username Goes Here wrote:
hubel585 wrote:
Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.
Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.
Image

An interesting round, in stock here: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/132180 ... g-_-132180
Image
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But @ $3/ea, on the high side...
More from the manufacture's site: http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/articles/show ... advantages

UNGH

I have tested them and the fier, So far unimpressed.

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