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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 19 Sep 2011, 11:58 
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leverman wrote:
I just think if one likes 45acp, why step down a notch to the S&W40?
they're all good, if I do my part,
leverman

For me...rounds per magazine. With my 1911 models I had 9 in the gun and 2 mags (approx 25 rds depending on the model & mags). With my Sig I have 13 in the gun and 2 mags (37 rounds). The only 45 i could do that with and remain accurate was a FNP45 but even it was too large for me to carry and shoot regularly enough to feel comfortable. Like you, not knocking the 45 or 40, just wanted more projectiles flying away from me if the need arises. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 21 Sep 2011, 07:53 
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Jay21 wrote:
leverman wrote:
I just think if one likes 45acp, why step down a notch to the S&W40?
they're all good, if I do my part,
leverman

For me...rounds per magazine. With my 1911 models I had 9 in the gun and 2 mags (approx 25 rds depending on the model & mags). With my Sig I have 13 in the gun and 2 mags (37 rounds). The only 45 i could do that with and remain accurate was a FNP45 but even it was too large for me to carry and shoot regularly enough to feel comfortable. Like you, not knocking the 45 or 40, just wanted more projectiles flying away from me if the need arises. :)
Jason




I can relate, so, when I have the need for more, I just carry both , 45 and hi-cap (17+1) 9mm,... problem solved.


works for me,
leverman


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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 21 Sep 2011, 11:06 
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People that carry .45acp are not gonna like the outcome if the bad guy has layers of clothes on.....just no penetrating power......keep your .40 to do the hard work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixnTDXg9 ... re=related


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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 07:35 
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rgregory1965 wrote:
People that carry .45acp are not gonna like the outcome if the bad guy has layers of clothes on.....just no penetrating power......keep your .40 to do the hard work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixnTDXg9 ... re=related



Uncontrolled testing, is hardly worth publishing,... and, most certainly isn't worth making a judgement that involves real world tests with personal injury consequences. A trail pard of mine has been in most conflicts, from Nam to Cuba and Panama, in his 23 year CIA and 27 Army Ranger career. He carried an old family passed down german luger (9mm) and a 1911 Auto Ordinance. He has four or five bullet wound scars and three or four knife/bayonet scars,... he has been there and done it!! We have talked about the 9mm vs 45acp for years, and, bottom line,... he says, on average, it usually takes two 9's , to, 0ne 45acp to drop an attacker, when you do your part. I trust his opinion.

I don't believe it is rocket science that an icepick will penetrate what a sledgehammer won't. Personally, I don't wish to be hit by either.

Yes, a smaller diameter projectile, at a substantial increase in feet per second, more, than a larger diameter projectile,.. will, in most instances PENETRATE better. But, one must never forget about heavier weight slugs and the momentum they create. Now, rather than compare apples to oranges,... let's put a 124 gr. cartridge in a 45acp and boost it up to 1,150FPS and see what penetration differences there are. Or, if you wish,... put a 230gr. @850fps in a 9mm, and see what we get!

All in all, I believe they both do what they were designed to do,... equally.

The 9mm vs 45acp dilemma,... will it ever end?

happy with both calibers,
leverman

p.s. as I have posted in the past,... I believe the 40S&W, in a heavy weight slug, is superior in performance, to both 9mm and 45acp,... in a carbine length barrel.


Last edited by leverman on 22 Sep 2011, 15:17, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 13:16 
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I'm on the other side of this thread in that I prefer .40 to .45 or 9mm when it comes to performance. If you look at metrics such as sectional density, energy, or direct testing in tissue simulant of hollow point ammunition, the .40 tends to do as well or better than the .45. Likewise, the capacity argument tends to favor the .40 over the .45 and the 9mm is only slightly better and the 9mm advantage of shot to shot recovery may or may not matter in an adrenaline powered fight. Where 9mm really seems to shine is in cost of practice which is why I often shoot it in lieu of .40.

When you consider that the 9mm and .45 are much older cartridges with related limitations on ammunition imposed by the liability of coping with 100 year old metalurgy in antique guns but the .40 has only been with us since 1989 and has no such constraints, I would be surprised if it wasn't the better mouse trap.

All this said, it seems all 3 are adequate to the intended purpose and subtle advantages between one or another may be lost in the final equation that relies more on one's ability to shoot their gun effectively (and reliably). A .22 that keeps working will tend to beat a jammed big bore every time.

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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 13:45 
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baffled1 wrote:
I'm on the other side of this thread in that I prefer .40 to .45 or 9mm when it comes to performance. If you look at metrics such as sectional density, energy, or direct testing in tissue simulant of hollow point ammunition, the .40 tends to do as well or better than the .45. Likewise, the capacity argument tends to favor the .40 over the .45 and the 9mm is only slightly better and the 9mm advantage of shot to shot recovery may or may not matter in an adrenaline powered fight. Where 9mm really seems to shine is in cost of practice which is why I often shoot it in lieu of .40.

When you consider that the 9mm and .45 are much older cartridges with related limitations on ammunition imposed by the liability of coping with 100 year old metalurgy in antique guns but the .40 has only been with us since 1989 and has no such constraints, I would be surprised if it wasn't the better mouse trap.

All this said, it seems all 3 are adequate to the intended purpose and subtle advantages between one or another may be lost in the final equation that relies more on one's ability to shoot their gun effectively (and reliably). A .22 that keeps working will tend to beat a jammed big bore every time.




Hmmm,... with Corbon loading of 185gr. 45acp,...at 1075fps with 475fpe,...I believe that compares 185gr. 45acp apples with 185gr. 40S&W apples. Which puts the 45acp out at 75fps faster and 75fpe more than the Federal 180gr. 40S&W loading.



doesn't seem all that ANTIQUE,... to me,
leverman


Last edited by leverman on 23 Sep 2011, 16:30, edited 9 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 18:10 
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leverman wrote:
rgregory1965 wrote:
People that carry .45acp are not gonna like the outcome if the bad guy has layers of clothes on.....just no penetrating power......keep your .40 to do the hard work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixnTDXg9 ... re=related



Uncontrolled testing, is hardly worth publishing,... and, most certainly isn't worth making a judgement that involves real world tests with personal injury consequences. A trail pard of mine has been in most conflicts, from Nam to Cuba and Panama, in his 23 year CIA and 27 Army Ranger career. He carried an old family passed down german luger (9mm) and a 1911 Auto Ordinance. He has four or five bullet wound scars and three or four knife/bayonet scars,... he has been there and done it!! We have talked about the 9mm vs 45acp for years, and, bottom line,... he says, on average, it usually takes two 9's , to, 0ne 45acp to drop an attacker, when you do your part. I trust his opinion.

I don't believe it is rocket science that an icepick will penetrate what a sledgehammer won't. Personally, I don't wish to be hit by either.

Yes, a smaller diameter projectile, at a substantial increase in feet per second, more, than a larger diameter projectile,.. will, in most instances PENETRATE better. But, one must never forget about heavier weight slugs and the momentum they create. Now, rather than compare apples to oranges,... let's put a 124 gr. cartridge in a 45acp and boost it up to 1,150FPS and see what penetration differences there are. Or, if you wish,... put a 230gr. @850fps in a 9mm, and see what we get!

All in all, I believe they both do what they were designed to do,... equally.

The 9mm vs 45acp dilemma,... will it ever end?

happy with both calibers,
leverman

p.s. as I have posted in the past,... I believe the 40S&W, in a heavy weight slug, is superior in performance, to both 9mm and 45acp,... in a carbine length barrel.




First were talking about the .40.....dont know how you all get stuck on and continue to bring up the 9mm vs .45......read the post were talking about the .40


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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 20:04 
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Hmmm,... with Corbon loading of 185gr. 45acp,...at 1075fps with 475fpe,...I believe that compares 185gr. 45acp apples with 180gr. 40S&W apples. Which puts the 45acp out at 75fps faster and 75fpe more than the Federal 180gr. 40S&W loading.



doesn't seem all that ANTIQUE,... to me,
leverman


Last edited by leverman on 23 Sep 2011, 16:31, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 20:33 
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The point being this isn't a 9mm versus .45acp thread, the .40 falls nicely above the 9mm and slightly below the
.45acp and fits my needs nicely as I don't care for the 9mm, and have never cared for it.
Most people who use the 9mm use it because they can shoot all day with hi-cap mags. I've carried .45acp for
many years, and the .40 is much closer to the .45acp than the 9mm. It boils down to what YOU like.
I personally, in a home defense situation perfer the 12 guage shotgun.
I'll shoot them once with the 12 Gauge, twice with the .45acp and 4 or 5 times with my wife's 9mm. [smilie=icon_mrgreen.gif]

It's all apples and oranges. :D

P.S. I'd much rather reload the .45acp than the other two.

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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 21:14 
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Cor Bon is known for marketing +P loads for cartridges not recognized as +P by SAAMI and I've fired a few of their rounds in modern guns that I would not in earlier designs (.45 Colt +P <sic>). Whether they push the envelope in cartridges they shouldn't, advertise inaccurate velocities, or overload all of their offerings (where does a Cor Bon 180 grain .40 velocity top out?) my critique still stands. Even if .40 is just the equal of .45, I'd rather have more rounds in the same size gun (or a 10mm instead).

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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 06:58 
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baffled1 wrote:
Cor Bon is known for marketing +P loads for cartridges not recognized as +P by SAAMI and I've fired a few of their rounds in modern guns that I would not in earlier designs (.45 Colt +P <sic>). Whether they push the envelope in cartridges they shouldn't, advertise inaccurate velocities, or overload all of their offerings (where does a Cor Bon 180 grain .40 velocity top out?) my critique still stands. Even if .40 is just the equal of .45, I'd rather have more rounds in the same size gun (or a 10mm instead).



Hmmm,... I don't believe I have seen any Corbon 45acp disclaimer, on their ammo box. The most I have seen in the way of a disclaimer is......
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"OUR COMPANY & GUARANTEE

Dakota Ammunition, manufacturer of COR®BON/Glaser products, is an American Family owned and operated corporation for over 27 years. Our company uses only the highest quality components and we put our products through rigorous daily testing to insure that we bring you the safest products available. Our facility has the most modern manufacturing and pressure testing equipment in the industry. We are proud to put "Made in America" on all of our boxes.
We stand behind our products 100%. If you are unsatisfied with one of our products for any reason, we will replace or refund your money."
-----------------------------------------------------------------

So, unless you can produce some data/facts that early 1911's are unsafe weapons with modern ammo, or, that Corbon is producing products dangerously beyond SSAMI specs,... I will just have to politely disagree with your published opinion.


leverman


Last edited by leverman on 23 Sep 2011, 09:47, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 09:42 
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baffled1 wrote:
Cor Bon is known for marketing +P loads for cartridges not recognized as +P by SAAMI and I've fired a few of their rounds in modern guns that I would not in earlier designs (.45 Colt +P <sic>). Whether they push the envelope in cartridges they shouldn't, advertise inaccurate velocities, or overload all of their offerings (where does a Cor Bon 180 grain .40 velocity top out?) my critique still stands. Even if .40 is just the equal of .45, I'd rather have more rounds in the same size gun (or a 10mm instead).




Hmmm,... why?

Did someone disparage the reputation of the 40S&W, with unsupported claims of inadequate performance ?

If so, just point them out,... I would be more than happy to defend such a fine caliber !!!


8)
leverman


Last edited by leverman on 23 Sep 2011, 19:53, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 10:36 
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baffled1 wrote:
Cor Bon is known for marketing +P loads for cartridges not recognized as +P by SAAMI and I've fired a few of their rounds in modern guns that I would not in earlier designs (.45 Colt +P <sic>). Whether they push the envelope in cartridges they shouldn't, advertise inaccurate velocities, or overload all of their offerings (where does a Cor Bon 180 grain .40 velocity top out?) my critique still stands. Even if .40 is just the equal of .45, I'd rather have more rounds in the same size gun (or a 10mm instead).


Mute point in .45acp as it has a low cup pressure compared to lots of the modern day calibers.

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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 13:22 
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 Post subject: Re: Done with .40
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2011, 13:31 
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I'm not a .40 fan and don't think many people are.
I'm judging this from what I saw during the gun and ammo rush of 2008 to 2010. Five days a week I was in gun shops and Wal-Mart’s almost 2-3 a day. When the rush started .380, 9mm and .45 were gone first. I almost always saw .40 sitting on the shelves. .40 did disappear, but it took a very long time through the ammo rush.

I did shoot a Baby Eagle in .40 that I liked. That’s most likely because it was a heavy pistol.


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