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 Post subject: How to: Living Trust for NFA transfers
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2006, 18:40 
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Another member sent this to me. It has worked for him and as far as I can tell is totally legit.

Ok, here's the deal. I'm not a lawyer, I could be full of shit. All I know is I did this, and ATF sent me form 1's and form 4's with tax stamps on them.

Get Quicken Will Maker, or Cosmi Platinum Wills, Living Wills and Trusts I JUST PICKED UP THE COSMI SOFTWARE FOR 10 BUCKS AT COMP USA or some derivative thereof.

You can do lots of legal stuff with it; make a will, make a lease, adopt a child in peru… Look for 'revocable living trust', or ‘Living Trust’. That's what you want. It will ask you a bunch of questions, kinda like Turbo-Tax.

When you’re done, your trust will probably end up with a name like 'The Otis W. Washington and Laqueesha L. Washington Revocable Living Trust'.

Unless you want to engrave that on the side of your SBR, you need to export a text version of the trust and change it to say '...which will be known as the OL Trust', or something more engravable, cause it won't let you dick with the text in the program itself. There is actually a line in the document that says ‘The Otis W. Washington and Laqueesha L. Washington Revocable Living Trust, which shall be known as The Otis W. Washington and Laqueesha L. Washington Revocable Living Trust’. Just change the second name to whatever you want to call it (i.e., engrave on your stuff).

This is apparently not the case on all Legal Docs software, but it does apply to Quicken.

If you use the 'print' function to print the trust, rather than ‘export’ it (as a TXT or RTF file), it will ask you if you’ve signed the forms. If you tell it ‘yes’, it will lock them up and not let you change them without an amendment. I guess that keeps everything nice and organized, but I never told it I signed mine so I can make changes, then ‘export’ a new version if I want to. If you hit the ‘export’ button, it will barf out an RTF or a TXT file or something similar that you can actually edit. Remember, it is a revocable, amendable trust, so that’s cool. I think. Besides, the notarized documents are the legally binding document, not the stuff on the computer. But I digress…

Smart people say that if you want a trust for your real estate, or your Star Wars action figure collection, you should make a completely different one. Keeps things nice and tidy for tax time, too.

Some people say you should put your wife on the trust, so that way if the safe is open, or you give her the combo, nobody will get in trouble if the feds raid your place at that particular moment.

Some people say that if you die, and leave your guns to your kid, he won’t have to pay transfer taxes on everything, just do some paperwork. The trust can own them until he’s old enough, if your kids are under 21.The software may ask you about this, and put it in the trust if you want to go that route.

Your computer will also barf out lists of stuff that you/the trust owns; Stuff you own by yourself, stuff your wife owns by herself, and stuff you own together. Once you get an approved form 1/4 back, you have to add it to the property list. Don’t forget! You don’t have to go back into the software for this, it’s just a list on a piece of paper.

You also want a 'Certification of Trust'. That's basically a document that says, 'I have a trust, but I'm not telling you what the details are'. Same as your ‘Declaration of Trust’, that you made earlier, but it leaves out all the ‘who gets what’ and 'stuff I've got' that you really don’t want to tell the feds anyway. Print that out, too. You have to do that separately for some reason. It was hard for me to find where to print that from, but I’m not so bright. I have faith in you; you can find it.

Take everything down to your bank, sign it in front of the cute girl, and have it all notarized for free. I didn’t take my lists of property, because it's not needed, and there wasn’t anything on there yet anyway. So by ‘everything’, I mean the Declaration of Trust, and Certification of Trust.

You don’t have to send copies of your trust to anybody else, if you don’t want to. In some states, you have to file a copy with the state, but not Arizona.

Actually, I don’t think you want to file a copy with anyone, it undermines the whole purpose of the trust. It’s not any ones business but yours who you’re leaving your Star Wars action figures to. The Quicken software will tell you if you need to file a copy with your state, if you’re not in AZ.

File the Declaration of Trust somewhere safe for when you die (like in your safe, or a safe deposit box), you'll need it then. Or somebody will.

Anyway, I sent the following items to the feds. It cost me 63 cents in a number 10 envelope.

• A regular photo copy of the notarized Certification of Trust (about 3 pages, as I recall)

• Certificate of Compliance (AKA form 5330.20 or the citizenship form)

• Form 1 or Form 4, on different occasions

• A check for $200

They sent me an approved form with a stamp on it, both times.

The best part is, you can do all of this in one day, and you don’t have to lick Sheriff Joe’s balls.

Seems simple enough, and done in ONE DAY

D.
AZEX

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AZEX, 17426 E. HUNT HWY. QUEEN CREEK, AZ 85142 www.azex.co FIDEI DEFENSOR
"If you press (cops...for more accountability) they will whine like Muslims, murderous, unaccountable, hypersensitive to criticism and perpetually offended."


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2006, 19:06 
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Holy Crap, is this for real? It would seem to easy, is there any draw back to the trust route?

Doug


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2006, 19:14 
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I don't know. I'm going to call NFA branch about it on Monday.

I plan on transferring suppressors out of AZEX's books for kitten's personal use.

D.
AZEX

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AZEX, 17426 E. HUNT HWY. QUEEN CREEK, AZ 85142 www.azex.co FIDEI DEFENSOR
"If you press (cops...for more accountability) they will whine like Muslims, murderous, unaccountable, hypersensitive to criticism and perpetually offended."


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2006, 19:30 
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Cool, keep us posted,

Doug


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2006, 19:47 
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I'm sure ATF will only view the grantor(s) of the revocable living trust as the owners of the NFA items. A trustee other than the grantor(s) would not be the owner since they cannot revoke the trust as the grantor(s) can.

I believe that only an individual alone or a husband and wife can be the grantor(s) of a revocable living trust. Because of this they lack the flexibility of an LLC.

It has been stated by others who checked with ATF that they will charge transfer fees when the NFA items pass on to the beneficiaries. This makes sense since upon death and the trust is dissolved.

What I don't yet have a grasp on are the tax filing requirements of the trust and their need for an EIN and filing a 1041. I'll try to look into that. The Grantor trust language that the IRS uses is confusing. This might be a situation where paying for legal/tax advice from an attorney or cpa that does estate planning is the safe thing to do.

At this point the only advantages seem to be that you can add your spouse to the NFA items and you don't need a local LEO signoff.


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2006, 20:28 
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Plus, no maintenence fees to the State like a corp or LLC.

No Filing Fees or "expedited processing" fees.

No waiting for weeks or months.

Would the officer in a corporate entity be able to bequeath an NFA item, which was registered to that corporate entity, "tax free" to his children or legal heir?

D.
AZEX

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AZEX, 17426 E. HUNT HWY. QUEEN CREEK, AZ 85142 www.azex.co FIDEI DEFENSOR
"If you press (cops...for more accountability) they will whine like Muslims, murderous, unaccountable, hypersensitive to criticism and perpetually offended."


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2006, 20:49 
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LLC's do not file Annual Reports so there are no yearly fees. Corps do.

Something you might want to think about before tying your NFA items to your wife. Are you going to be married forever? If you divorce and the NFA items are in the name of a trust that your wife is also the grantor on you are going to have to dissolve the trust and pay the $200 transfer to move the items to just yourself or a new trust. With an LLC you could just remove her as a member. Of course, this is if you are not forced to sell them all as part of the divorce anyway. [smilie=icon_eek.gif]


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 23 Sep 2006, 22:57 
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Well, I figure these ones are hers already anyway.

She's a good girl and I take good care of her, with regard to toys anyway.

[smilie=icon_mrgreen.gif]

D.
AZEX

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AZEX, 17426 E. HUNT HWY. QUEEN CREEK, AZ 85142 www.azex.co FIDEI DEFENSOR
"If you press (cops...for more accountability) they will whine like Muslims, murderous, unaccountable, hypersensitive to criticism and perpetually offended."


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 24 Sep 2006, 10:39 
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Yes it's for real. I know someone who used a trust to do both a form 1 and form 4.

IB, are you sure all LLC's don't file annual reports? Or only sole-member LLCs? I know I do not, but I am the only member of my LLC.

Trusts are a legitimate form of NFA ownership.

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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 24 Sep 2006, 12:37 
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Nope, LLC's do not file annual reports, only corporations file annual reports. Corporations also require a disclosure statement when they are formed.


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 24 Sep 2006, 23:27 
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I am tagging this. I am also looking into doing a trust instead of a LLC. I would like to know about any tax thing also.


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 Post subject: Re: How to: Living Trust for NFA transfers
New postPosted: 27 Sep 2006, 14:09 
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AZEX wrote:
When you’re done, your trust will probably end up with a name like 'The Otis W. Washington and Laqueesha L. Washington Revocable Living Trust'.

Thanks for the info D., but why did you use my parents' names? [smilie=icon_mrgreen.gif]


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New postPosted: 02 Oct 2006, 20:28 
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Hey AZEX,

I am using the same program for the living trust. I was wondering if you can answer a few questions(I know you are not a lawyer or anything),but mostly general questions.

When I printed mine out it does not say anything about the name of the trust on it. Is it suppose to? What parts are you suppose to mail to the ATF to get a form 1 or 4 approved?

Also when I printed it out it mostly prints about article sections with no real info that I put in only that I am the trustee and Settlor. It printed 6 pages. Am I doing it right? Don't what problems with the ATF kicking it back.

Thanks
John


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 02 Oct 2006, 21:28 
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Which program are you using?


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: 02 Oct 2006, 22:17 
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It's the Cosmi Perfect Wills,Living Wills Trusts & Estate Planning. Got it at Compusa it was the only one they had.


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